Is this a war time Petromax?

Just got this old lamp - I was shopping for spares on a local classifieds website and this just showed up. Condition was too good to pass even if the price wasn't exactly cheap.

Defining features are: 1. Separate pressure gauge and filling cap 2. A huge rib on the upper generator 3. Amber control wheel 4. Lack of a preheating cup (by design as there is no enlarged hole on the body). 5. Preheater lever looking like a gun cock. 6. Red painted top of the hood 7. no serial number (or I don't know where to look).

From what I've seen in the lamp gallery this appears to be made in the 1940's but I'm looking for advice from the experts

 

Ah, one more thing, the bottom of the fount had been cleaned up to the brass, so if there was a date stamp there (as in paint not engraved) it's long gone.

 

I'm no expert on these (or any lantern) but I think this may be early post war. The pre war types did have the red top, possibly setting them apart from the alcohol pre heat types but the rapid lighter was the on, off type, not the spoon type pictured here. The valve wheel was fiber too although plastic types did come along later. I have a plastic valve wheel on my Px821 from 1939.

Hope this helps a little.

George

 

Thanks George. At some point I read somewhere (can't remember where) that the on-off pre-heater (with the red knob) was used up to 1939. But my knowledge on this matter is very limited.

With the back of the font being totally erased up to the brass I guess the production date can be determined only by comparing the lantern with others from the same period that have the production date stamp still present.

 

A fine looking example. I comment as an admirer rather than an expert. In my opinion your lantern is 30's possibly early 40's. Inspect the base of the font carefully, more often than not, a number is lightly scribed. This may indicate the date of manufacture or acquisition by original owner etc. More photos please!

 

Thanks eiremax, you were correct. I just didn't knew what to look for, but after finding this topic Petromax Rapid 828 300 HK - 1940 and looking carefully at the last photo I understood that I was looking for little more then a scratch, not for proper engravings. Also very important I figured out that the bottom should be brass, not chrome plated.

So I took a small rag, soaked it in alcohol, took the glass out and started rubbing gently the bottom. And behold, a nice 11 41 showed up .Will try to take a decent photo and post it later.

So the lantern was made (or possibly sold first time) in November 1941.

 

This is the best photo I could manage using the phone. Third number is actually a clearly inscribed 4 but it only shows if seen on a certain angle.

 

As the saying goes "If only it could talk". A great find. Be extra cautious as regards the preheater handle, to describe it in two words... Delicate, Rare.

 

Thanks for the advice. Indeed it looks delicate enough to break.

So far the lamp definitely needs a new leather pump gasket as the old one came out in pieces when I took the pump out. However the gasket on the filling cap looks soft and good to go.

The lamp looks so good because it was put in storage with copious amounts of petroleum jelly on it. There are two small dents on the fount and one on the rim of the hood but generally speaking the condition is amazing for a 79 years old utility item. The glass is original as well, has some small chips on the lower edge but looks like it could be used.

 

A splendid find!

 

I think if this is pre war then the vaporizer has been replaced. That's one of the things that threw me. That "fin" on the vaporizer appeared, I thought in the post war period. Now, before I stick both feet in my mouth, perhaps someone can help me here. lol

Wish the lantern had a manometer on it. That would make it a bit easier. The pre war ones usually had D.R.P. stamped on them.

 

It has a manometer, but it sits on it's own tube (not shared with the fuel cap). You can see it in the last photo in the original post. It is inscribed "Original Petromax" and it is much larger then the DRP ones.

Tbh I haven't seen a fin/rib that big on any other Petromax vaporizer, but I very much doubt this is not original to the lamp. From what I was able to gather with the seller the lamp was stored for the last 40 years (at the very least).

Inside it there was this paper bag with two mantles, probably they were put there when the lamp was stored.

 

Well, I am happy to announce that the old lamp is holding pressure just fine. I remembered that one of my Chinese clones came with a bag of spares and inside it was a leather cup. I let it soak in extra virgin olive oil for an hour or so and installed it. The pump performance is pathetic (obviously the Chinese leather cup is less then stellar) but the NRV still works fine. Same can be said for the generator valve.

 

A very nice lamp. So much history.

 

Hi @Adrian , try soaking the leather cup in mineral oil. Veggie oil will harden with time. The cup will already be soaked in mineral oil by the maker.

 

A lovely old lantern in excellent condition for its age. Good find.

 

Thank you. I've read that neatsfoot oil would be recommended but it's not available here. Is the mineral oil sold for sewing machines suitable for this application?

 

Thanks guys. I must confess I was very pleasantly surprised with the condition of the lamp. Most of the old pressure lamps (war time or early) that show up for sale here are in horrible condition, usually having spent decades in damp condition in rural areas.

 

Hi @Adrian , the sewing machine oil is perfect, but you can use any engine oil etc. too. In an emergency even the oil on your car's dip stick.

Neatsfoot oil is very good, some mix it with bees wax to make it even better. But neatsfoot oil is not always available, and more expensive.

 

Yes, its a wartime (WWII) Petromax provided its made within Sept 1st, 1939 and Sept 2nd 1945..
The Petromax 829 500hk could be found in a 1939 catalog if I've not mistaken. Unless you could make out exactly what are the numbers scratched under the fount, I can't discount the possibility of pre-war.
This design is definitely not post-war.
As for the extra large 'fin' on the upper vaporizer, I'm not aware that Petromax ever incorporated any such feature before the 1950s. I'm not too sure if these were on the Optimus lanterns of that period. The 50s, 60s and modern Petromax have the fin/rib on the inner side of the vaporizer, not the outer.

 

Thanks Wim. Given the small quantities needed for the leather cup I believe the price wouldn't be relevant here, unless it's being sold only in large containers.

Googling around I discovered that Decathlon sells an oil intended for equestrian equipment maintenance. It is based on neatsfoot oil but sadly they also added sunflower oil in an unknown percentage. This is available at the various Decathlon shops in Bucharest as well so I can easily buy it. Horse Riding Leather Oil 500ml

 

The numbers are very clear (at least to the eye, the 4 didn't show up so well in the photo). The fount is undoubtedly inscribed 11 41. It is hard to say if these mean the production date or the date of the initial sale, but given the situation during the war I can hardly believe that Petromax held years old stock.

About the upper generator you have to consider the fact that Romania was firmly allied with Germany until 23 August 1944, when a coup set up by the marginalized king resulted in the arrest and imprisonment of the pro-Axis dictator Ion Antonescu. 3 years later the country was already ruled by a communist regime with Soviet troops all over the place. So any equipment made outside of the Soviet controlled zone in Germany would have been nearly impossible to acquire. Things changed by the late 60's but looking at the paper bag of the mantles found in the lamp, I highly doubt the generator can be a late 60's part.

Given it's production date, the lamp obviously came here during the late 1941 or early 1942 as Germany provided large quantities of equipment to Romania in exchange for oil. If the upper generator is a more recent part my guess would be 1947 at the latest. Unless this type of upper generator is known to have been made in the Petromax factory which fell in the Soviet occupied zone, of course.

 

In any case, we can discard the idea that the upper generator could be an aftermarket part. In the third photo you can see how thick the fin/rib actually is. Honestly it's the strongest such fin I've ever seen on any pressure lamp. Maybe a war time requirement given the extended use and the abuse/misuse that was somehow expected?

 

The scratch marks tell the tale, it's pre war. I thought the red top was only available on the early Rapid Lighter series. I have an 828 made in November 1936, and it does not have the red top.

 

George, this one is not pre-war but made at the height of WWII (right after the German invasion of the Soviet Union). It may however be a pre-war model (except for the fin on the upper generator). Probably the 1938 and 1939 Petromax catalogues could bring some light into this matter.

We're talking about the war in Europe, of course, as the US entered WWII after the Pearl Harbor attack (December 7 1941, so just a month or so after this lamp was made)

 

Well that is written indeed, in "Signal Auf Grünn, Geschichte des VEB Werk für Signal- und Sicherungstechnik Berlin".

 

Wim, is there information in that book regarding this type of upper generator?

 

Its about making lantern for the Russians.
You may search for the patent that descibes the rib exclusively as new.

I guess that there where problems with bending or getting heat in the vaporizer at some time period.
Maybe there is something written in the Lahde book.

 

Ah, OK, that's well known (the Petromax factories in the Russian control zone were used for some time after the end of the war to make lamps) .

Indeed knowing when the patent was registered would pretty much allow to figure out the maximum age of this type of the upper generator.

 

On my patent webpage you can find patent DE873381(1951-1953)
This patent describes the reason why as well as the new idea of placing the rib at the mantle side of the tube.

Old AIDA lanterns have also this rib at the backside. Which was the normal position for some time.

The rib is a standard part and not an after market or special made or whatever feature.
Also we should never forget that these lamps where used. Parts that would be renewed or worn out simply would be replaced.

So you are lucky that your old lantern has the right old vaporizer.