Need advice i want to start stripping down lantern frames and not sure what to use Phosphoric Acid or Molasses. This is the advice from friends that ive been given so far, use Evapo Rust Remover or Rust Bucket soak the frame in for a few hours or over night if needed, then remove the frame use 0000 steel wool scrub the frame with water and dishwashing liquid then dry the frame with a cloth and use mothers Mag and Aluminium Polish to clean the frame up. Would 0000 wool scratch the frame ? Then i was told by another mate that the frame would rust in a few months time doing it that way. He suggested i use Phosphoric Acid clean the rust pat dry that way it works by stopping flash rusting and in the same process removes all rust. Then i was told not to use Phosphoric Acid and to use Molasses instead, and after clean with water then dip in Phosphoric Acid to seal then pat dry. Im so confused can someone please tell me out of what ive been told would be my best option. If i use Molasses what ratio do i mix for best results, and how long do i leave it in the mix for. Same with if i use Phosphoric Acid how long do i leave it in for as i was told that both Phosphoric Acid and Molasses will eat the tin/aluminium springs in some lanterns where they are riveted to the frame. Sorry for all the questions but i need advice from people that have restored lamps tried all the above methods. Plus mixture ratios. Kind Regards Darren
@Kiwiboy00 G'day Darren, My understanding is that Phosphoric acid converts the rust to an inert substance preventing further corosion. It is not a rust remover. The others including citric acid and vinegar disolve the rust thus removing it. How long it takes depends on the amount of rust and the strength of the acid. If discimilar metals are placed in the bath a galvanic condition is created and more reactive metals such as brass or aluminium can disolve if left in the solution too long. I use citric acid and mix 1 table spoon acid to two litre water. Check regulary and scrub. It can take a day or two for heavy rust.
@Kiwiboy00 I generally use a citric acid mix like @ROBBO55 for mixed metal parts. Not too strong and keep checking if there’s brass or other metal. As soon as the brass looks as though it might go pink, take it out. 1 tablespoon of anhydrous citric acid to a litre of water or weaker. I also use electrolysis but only if pieces are all steel and not plated or enamelled. I don’t put small springs in acid. Been there, done that (vinegar)! I use rust converters if the rust is so bad the metal will loose structure if the rust is removed. I use automotive aluminium polish for aluminium. I never mix it with other metals in solution. As @ROBBO55 advises above, galvanic reactions will actively remove some metals. Tony
It converts the rust to stable (i.e. inert, as you say) iron phosphate - the rust is gone, ergo phosphoric acid must be a rust remover...
OK David, Yes the rust is removed but depending on the amount of rust you can be left with unsightly lumps of iron phosphate on the surface of the metal. In some instances this might be preferable to holes
I prefer to remove the loose surface rust prior to the phosphoric acid treatment. That way, only the rust left in any pitting remains for treatment and the resulting iron phosphate fills those quite nicely leaving a surface ready for priming and painting...
@Kiwiboy00 I'll assume that the lantern frames that you've mentioned are made of steel. It'll be nice if you could mention the brand or model of the lantern(s). Some have nameplates which have been attached with aluminium rivets. These rivets could be dissolved if too stong an acid is used. It depends how heavy is the rusting. If its heavily rusted, phosphoric acid would not be ideal as iron phosphate would form and build up around heavy rust, sealing the underlying rust from further treatment/conversion. Use citric acid to remove the rust down to bare metal first. Might take a day or two. Then rinse clean it. After that, just wet the frame completely with phosphoric acid until a uniform grey iron phosphate has form on the frame's surface. Wipe off (gently) excess acid to ensure it dries rapidly. Do not allow acid to pool and dry itself on the metal or an unsightly white solid or some undesirable, flaky black phosphate would form. Allow the frame to dry out completely for at least 24hrs before you do anything else with it. Even without paint, the frame is quite resistant to rusting if not frequently wetted with water. It'll still rust after a while unless its oiled, painted, coated or plated.
I’m currently restoring a badly abused 201 and have stripped the tank and frame of paint and rust. Unfortunately I’m getting flash rusting on the frame. So I understand this correctly, once I remove it out of the rust solution do I rinse the parts off and paint on the phosphoric acid with a brush or dip it fully submerged and pull the frame and tank out and drip or pat dry ? Will this stop flash rusting or do I need to put it in the oven after. I don’t want to use a clear coat or paint I want to give it that rustic authentic aged look showing the rust pitting but without the rust coming back. Unfortunately when I pull the frame out it goes rusty within a few minutes flash rusting. What options do I have i have 4L of phosphoric acid. Can I fully submerge the frame and tank or do i paint it on and blow dry or pat dry or bake dry. Is it best to oil the frame after applying phosphoric acid after 24hrs or am I best to leave it after applying phosphoric acid applying no oil. Once this process is finished do I have to do anything else. Will this prevent flash rusting and further flash rusting. Thank you
I wouldn't risk the wholesomeness of the product by immersing things in it. I just paint it on with an old brush after first getting rid of as much rust as I can via a variety of means, such as rotating wire brushes, sandblasting, acid treatment and sometimes electrolysis. I only leave the phosphoric acid product on for about half an hour to an hour. Then dry it. Leaving it then overnight and it seems to change color a bit to a grey colour. Works.
I find electrolysis a much easier and safer method of removing rust especially from lantern frames. For most lantern frame a 5 gallon plastic bucket is a good electrolysis tank. Use at least 4 sacrificial anodes spaced around the tank. It's quick, especially compared to molasses, cheaper than evaporust by a bunch and safer than any acid because if you forget the part and leave it in too long nothing bad happens. It will also get all the rust out even from the tiny pits and crannies. Plastic bucket, 4 pieces scrap iron (rebar, old lawn mower blade etc.), power supply (I use old laptop power bricks, battery charger anything that puts out 12v 1a or better), water, electrolyte (baking soda, washing soda, trisodium phosphate (TSP)) and you're good to go. After electrolysis, wash with tap water, dry, give light rub down with your choice of wire wheel (I use a special extra fine one, not the big box $7 thing), steel wool, scotch brite etc and you are ready to paint, clear coat, oil whatever finish of your choice. I usually either clear coat or paint lantern frames, depending on the lantern at hand. I have and use evaporust and Ospho (a commercial phosphoric acid product) and several other products but electrolysis is my first go-to for removing rust from pretty much anything including frames, founts, stove cases and small bits.
Thank you for taking the time to write that Reese. Unfortunately I have already brought the Sonic Cleaner and solution. I guess I just really want to know what the step-by-step process would be once I pull it out of the solution and the rust is all gone. I have phosphoric acid. So once I pull it out of my solution and dry it off. Do I wash it in freshwater and then dry it or leave it wet and paint on the phosphoric acid then tap it dry or leave it for 30mins then dry it. And how many Applications do I apply. afterwards do I need to apply a light coat of oil or will the phosphoric acid be enough to protect the frame. sorry for all the questions I’m just trying to get my head around the entire process step-by-step. Regards Darren
You don't need to immerse the whole thing in phosphoric. Application with a paint brush would suffice. Just thoroughly wet all surfaces and wipe off excess with a rag to avoid pooling. It should only be 'moist' enough, not dripping wet. It won't take very long to become dry to the touch. Allow to just air dry/cure overnight. You can dry it under the Sun but do not bake-dry or it will completely remove chemically-bound water(dehydrate) the hydrated iron phosphate formed. If this iron phospate coating is completely dehydrated, it will become very porous and drastically lose its corrosion-protective properties. Do not paint on a wet surface. Nothing would adhere. Once the iron phosphate coating is pretty much dry to touch the following day, you can soak it with oil for additional protection. I'd assume you do not want to clear coat it as you mentioned earlier.
You really need to understand how the tools you're using work. An ultrasonic cleaner isn't going to do much if anything to get rid of rust. What solution are you planning to use un the ultrasonic? To remove rust you can physically remove it from the piece with steel wool, wire brush, wire wheel on a motor or sandpaper. These will typically not get to the bottom of pits so depending on condition you may not get all the rust. Physical removal works best for light surface rust or to remove loose heavy flakes from badly rusted material prior to employing another removal method. Second method is to use a chelating agent such as evaporust or molasses. These products bond to the iron oxide (rust) and help release it from the unrusted iron. They are safe, somewhat slow (compared to other methods) and can be relatively expensive. You can use an acid. People use muriatic and citric acid. Acids are (depending on strength of mix) fast. Downside is they are dangerous to work with and can ruin your workpiece is used improperly. Electrolysis is essentially reverse electro-plating. The iron oxide is transferred from the workpiece to a sacrificial anode by means of an electric current and conductive solution. It is cheap, safe, quick and will not hurt the workpiece. Phosphoric acid works by converting iron oxide to iron phosphate, an inert form of rust that is black. It is best used in small amounts and applied only to area of rust. Typically I will use phosphoric acid on something like a suitcase stove case that has an overall good finish still on it but has a spot or two of rust. I will physically remove what rust I can then dab the area with phosphoric on a cotton swab or small paint brush. If you apply too much phosphoric acid it will dry to a greyish-white. That can be scrubbed of with steel wool.
If I have used any form of acid to remove rust. To prevent rust flashing 1. Remove from acid and scrub with steel wool until clean. 2. Wash with bicarbonate soda to neutralize acid. 3. Wash with clean water. 4. Apply heat straight away to remove all moisture . 5. Apply wax (or oil) whilst the metal is still hot.
Thank you Myn, Reese, Robbo, Tony, David, Sedgman, appreciate the advise given in this post. There’s just so much to learn, it can be mind blowing. I don’t know what it is about this particular lantern but i want to remove every inch of rust from her no matter how naked or ugly she might look. There’s just something about kerosene lanterns in particular that I love apart from the smell The burner mesh is not in great shape what options do I have, is this an easy fix. I have lots of Tilley burners but at a guess none will fit the 201 seeing its Coleman and not Tilley. Unfortunately it’s about $50 to get a new cap. Can you buy the gauze if so from where and is it easy to install in the 201 burner head. Sorry for all the questions but this is the best place to come with such a knowledgeable people. Cheers Darren
