Hipólito H 202 needle breakage

I’ve got a beautiful NOS Hipólito H 202 that I decided to take into use for the first time a couple of days ago. The lamp lit up just fine and burned for perhaps two hours when suddenly it flickered and produced lots of flames and smoke. I quickly shut it off, let it cool completely and then discovered that the needle pricker wire was missing. I replaced it with the spare included in the original spares kit, cleaned everything up and lit it up again to test it. It burned just fine until I shut it off a short time later. Tonight I used the lamp again and, lo and behold, after about two hours it displayed the same exact symptoms and the new needle pricker wire is missing.

Obviously what I’ve described isn’t normal and is extremely dangerous. What could be causing an essentially brand new lamp to destroy brand new needles like this?

 

Misaligned needle relative to jet orifice or less likely you have the needle too high. The solid part of the needle can vary in height from production to production so its good to check your spacing. Can you upload a photo of the needle, sight of that may help narrow problem down. Greetings from Ireland.

 

After giving this a lot more thought, my guess is that the needle height adjustment was way too high. Would burning the lamp with such a setting result in the wire tip simply burning/melting away? The lamp had clearly never been used before, so I wonder how it would have made it out of the factory with a needle extending some 2–3 mm above the valve.

Since I now have no needle, I can only order some spares and see if I can figure out how to make the adjustment so that there’s only 0.5–1 mm of wire exposed when the fuel shutoff valve is in the closed position.

 

Oh my, I guess you posted a helpful reply about the same subject I was just writing about. Sorry for the awkward timing.

I can add photos of both of the damaged needles if that’s of any use (although I can’t imagine it would be).

 

I wrested with this same problem - the body of the needle that came in a new service pack was longer than the original. The rods are normally adjustable. I ended up taking the whole vapoursier assembly out of the lantern and fiddling with it until the needle only shows about .5 - 1mm above the jet. Also make sure the underside of the jet is not full of carbon as this can catch the needle as it moves up.

 

Almost seems like it would be easier to clip the excess wire from the freshly installed needle to leave the specified 0.5–1 mm above the jet housing. Of course I’m not going to do this, but I have to wonder if that might be another way to accomplish the same thing. Perhaps fuel flow would be adversely affected due to the needle housing being situated too high within the jet?

 

So did you check the pressure and use the needle for the purpose it was made: cleaning the jet. A NOS lantern doesn't mean all is well. You should always check if all parts are still fixed in lace. Heating, cooling down loosens many threads.

 

Yes, I spent time checking things over before taking the lamp into use. I checked that the jet and needle were tight, operated the fuel shutoff to verify that the needle raised and lowered, finger tightened the burner, pressure tested the unit, AND read the entire operation manual, which says nothing about measuring the height of the needle :-)

 

Unscrew the control knob assembly as a complete unit from where it attaches to the lower carburetor. Then the upper carburetor and the control rod. After that, it is trial and error to get the head height of the needle correct. An easy job. Remember, it should just barely protrude above the jet.

 

You definitely should not do this, as this will leave a burr wich will widen the orifice of the jet easily. Any shortening of the pricker wire requires a deburring to get it shaped accurately.

It could well be that a newly bought jet was not manufactured properly. I have about 5 jets here that are so sloppy on the inside that you can't insert the needle without it getting stuck, even if you try very carefully with per hand when unmounted. When mounted, it is almost certain that the needle will be bent and/or break off, which happened to me several times. Very annoying!

 

This is is a very useful document.
https://classicpressurelamps.com/attachments/px-rest-pdf.57117/
Page 7 shows the correct way to adjust the needle.

 

My replacement parts have finally arrived and I’m ready to install the new needle and adjust the height properly. I've read and studied pages 7-8 of the Petromax cleaning and restoration guide, but the combination of the lack of certain key photos and the awkward language make it altogether unclear what I need to do. I have seen videos of people adjusting the needle height on seemingly similar lamps without removing the control knob assembly, so I wonder if this is in fact required. Therefore, is it possible to just slacken the nut labeled 1 in the attached photo to remove the upper carburetor and then the rod inside? Or, assuming that’s a stupid question and I actually have to remove the control knob assembly, can I do this without removing the entire frame first? If so, do I loosen the nut labeled 1 or the one labeled 2 in my photo?

 

Unfortunately you'll have to remove the upper part of the vaporizer completely (1) in order to get out the needle rod and get access to the square lock nut at the top of guiding block for the excenter. Moreover you need to loosen the excenter assembly (2) as much so that you can pull out the needle rod completely. The glandnut (3) doesn't need to be loosened, but you may have to turn the control knob slightly during re-assembling in order to get the excenter engaged in the guiding block.
I know that there is a special tool available that allows to loosen/tighten the square lock nut while the excenter/needle rod stays in place, but I haven't found (or searched) one so far.

 

I normally remove the upper vaporiser part (nut 1) and then remove the needle rod, by turning it out of the extender valve block.
Then adjust the small nut on the needle rod and place it back.

 

Job completed

I ended up removing the frame just to reduce the chances of knackering something with spanners. I’m glad to have done so just for the sake of learning more about the lamp, how it works, and how to service it.

Although both the original needle and the spare provided by the manufacturer are spent, I swear that the wire end of the new needles I bought from Petromax are shorter. Anyway, the lamp is working perfectly now so I’m very happy about that.

I’ve attached a picture of the newly installed needle in its closed position. I can just barely feel it poking out of the nozzle, which I feel must mean somewhere around 0.5 mm.

 

Looks perfect !

 

Has this ever happened to you with the lamp in operation? Did it flame out on you like mine did?

I just received three new needles from Petromax and, while two of them look great, the other one has a bent wire. I didn’t want to install that one for fear that it would fail. Is it best to just throw away a brand new needle if the wire isn’t straight? Below is a (fuzzy & horrible) picture of my two remaining brand new needles sent to me by Petromax.

 

I would bend it back carefully using fine pliers. If it snaps or ends up with a kink so be it..

 

Looks good. Hipolito did a fine job making the 250. Needle protrusion looks to be spot on. You can read and read about these lanterns but you won't ever truly have knowledge until you strip, repair and rebuild a number of times.

 

I’m back to tinkering with this lantern after taking a break from it and it seems that it still has some issues, some of which may not have to do with the user .

Every burn seems to end with it going a bit dim and dirtying the mantle and inner casing. Brand new needle, height set correctly. Nozzle-to-J-tube gap set according to spec. Everything else in good order—remember, the lantern has just recently been taken into use after sitting in the box for 29 years. Every time I light it, I first clean it up and check everything over. The mixing chamber and clay burner are always found slightly loose, as is the fixing screw for the J-tube.

Today I decided to replace the jet/nozzle without having reason to suspect anything else causing the problem. I wonder if the original one might have had its orifice damaged or enlarged due to the earlier breakage of two needle wires in operation .

It’s burning now with a bright white mantle so I hope things are at least resolved as far as the burn quality is concerned.

P.S. I have a brand new ceramic oxide burner for this lantern. Is there any benefit to using that versus the stock clay burner? I bought it as a backup but would make the switch if there were any real benefit.

 

And just now another nasty flameout. I just don’t get it but I don’t trust this lantern as far as I can throw it . I don’t think I’ll be hanging on to this one.

 

After another cleanup and pre-flight inspection, I ran the lantern again for about 1.5 hours. It seemed to work flawlessly but here’s the aftermath…



Again, the needle and jet have both been replaced and the jet-to-J-tube height is set according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

Is there anything else to check or try? What about setting the jet-to-J-tube height higher, like for a 350\500 CP lantern? Or fitting a 150 CP needle and jet? These are probably stupid ideas, but I seem to be out of “smarter” ones at this point.

 

A hairline crack in the preston loop which only opens up after some time burning? The nipple is totally clean so the fuel came out under not through. It could be some version of this but again I think it is too clean. That was a leak at the nipple seat and it just needed tightening.


.

 

You should first look and search for leakages, like @JonD, says.
Then :
- The 202 is, as far as I know, a 250cp lantern. Don't experiment with other jet/needles sizes. I get the idea that you are obsessed with changing jets and needles.
- then tell us how you start and shut off the lantern.

My best guess is that there is a leak under or near the jet base.
A light , escaping fumes will not be noticed. When cooling down they start to burn on their own on the diminishing pressure.

Best way (?) to stop: simply release the pressure with the pressure release screw. With a (leather) glove to be on the safe side, you never know.

 

I'm the same opinion as JonD. The seal of the jet seems to be improper, or it is a hairline crack in the vaporizer.
Maybe you can try to tighten it when it runs, so the brass is warm and will be a bit more ductile, and the seat of the nipple will form a better seal. But beware not to overstress it, it might get easily broken. You can simply watch whether the additional flames get smaller or even extinguish in the best case.
If it is a hairline crack in the vaporizer you could only try to silver-solder it.

 

Just an idea: you should or may also check the height of the jets. It may be possible that new jets are slightly higher and may not fit.

 

How is this accomplished? I have no idea what I should be envisioning here.

 

To my recollection I have never once in my life experimented with different needle and jet sizes. If you think I’m obsessing about such because I’ve pondered the subject and asked hypothetical questions about it, fine. I’m here to learn, as I’ve always tried to make plain.

I’ve had the same results soft-starting (two doses of alcohol, two matches) using the rapid heater (90 seconds). I shut it off by releasing the pressure via the pressure relief screw and closing the jet via the handwheel.

 

What do you mean by checking the “height” of the jet(s)? I’ve only used two jets with this lantern: the factory installed one and the identical spare supplied in the included tool & parts kit. Why would either or both of these not “fit?”

 

Not all Pmaxes are made equal, there's always an outlier particularly between ones made all the way up until 1971 and the chinese runs made after. There are a lot of little nuances and difference between the two such as the Chinese made foot valve for example being longer than what was originally installed pre 70's. This usually warrants taking apart the pricker rod and eccentric block. Then you have to adjust the set nut to change the height of the pricker and valve depth.