Kayen table lamp shades

Does anybody know if Kayen offered a shade for their HL7 table lamp? I am guessing they might have offered a parchment style shade but don't recall ever seeing a Kayen lamp with a shade.

 

Hi Nils

Kayen Part Number A 101 . 16 in Parchment Shade for AP 2 = 8/6d
Kayen Part Number A 102 . 16 in Parchment Shade for HL 7 = 12/6d

I would have thought the AP 2 would have been a harder one to make a shade for. Not according to price.

Colin

 

Thanks colin. Do you have any pictures of these? I'm wondering how easy it might be to make a reproduction.

 

Sorry Nils,

No pictures, only 16 in. I presume at the bottom.

Colin

 

Hi !
What are you trying to find a picture off ?
mick

 

Hi Mick
I would like to know what the original shades looked like and how they are put together. Hopefully it's not too difficult to make a reproduction. I have two HL7's and they really need a shade to make them useful. Perhaps Kayen copied the Tilley shade and there must be a pattern for one of them somewhere.

A parchment shade for the AP2 would be interesting as well. Maybe it hung off the edge of the steel reflector.

 

I do have an original shade for the TL 13 etc and no logical reason why it wouldn't fit the HL 7 It is 13.5 in [ Bot ] X 7.5 in [ top ] x 7 in [ side length ]. So the Kayen is quite a bit larger than this.

I do have the Pattern Maker here somewhere for shades. I have made a Fluted and straight sided and works really well.

Nils, I think you may have hit the nail on the head re AP 2. So obvious, I've been thinking how you would do it. Next project.

Colin

 

Hi !

This is proberbly not what you want .

You talk about A101 16 inch Parchment shade for AP2 and A102 for HL7 .
I guess your looking at the parts listing for Kayen printed in october 1949 on the reverse side my list shows the lamps broken down and top left A101 and A102 is parchment shades one with grapes the other with ivy. Stitched over frame top and bottom.Its a line drawing not in colour.
mick

 

Hello Mick could you put a copy of your Kayen sheet in the reference for us all to see please.
Graham.

 

Hi Mick,

Isn't it amazing when you look on the other side. Exactly what we are looking for.

The 102 would be for the HL 7, 101 for AP 2 sitting on the the reflector.

Now off to the workshop

Colin

 

Now a picture of that page (or both) would be good for us without any paperwork at all (please).

 

just sent this to post on here from micks paperwork mountain





pete

 

Hi !
Thanks Peter !

Here are the two pages I have on Kayen parts , as the text was small I have blown the pages up larger leaving Peter to some how !! put them back together hence blurry bit in middle !
I,m hopeless at computers !
mick

 

...but you're good at lamps, Mick and that's what counts here!

Anyway, aren't some/most of those parts a blatant rip-off of the equivalent Tilley items...

 

Hi Dave !
Yes Kayen's are direct copies of Tilley.

The reason ?

Australian goverment refused to allow copper to be imported into Australia after 2nd world war. Copper could be exported and alot of Australia was rural and power blackouts were a common occurance after the war years . There was a very big market to be had in portable lamps.
Nettlefold's and Kopsen's realised the market and obviously cashed in on the demand.
But Dave I'm English and live in England
( Australia for four months )
so why don't I leave the australian collectors here on the lamp site to explain in more detail the Kayen history !
Mick

 

Thanks, Mick.

I was aware of the Australian embargo on certain imports after the war. What I wonder about (but don't lose any sleep over!) is Tilley not enforcing their various copyrights. My presumption is that Tilley were either too impoverished to pursue their legal rights on the other side of the world or more concerned with getting back on their feet in the post-war austerity programme. I also wonder if there might have been some sort of 'arrangement' between the two countries as a quid pro quo for Aussie support during the hostilities.

As you say though, some of our Antipodean correspondents may have more information in this regard...

 

In a nutshell it was Tariff Restrictions / Embargos on Imported Products after WW 11 to promote Australian Industry. Not just Tilley but the whole Import Market.

The Australian Coleman is another example of the Restrictions. You will find Australian replicas across the board on a lot of products.

Kayen & Nettlefold never manufactured any lamps, they assembled them. This is why there are thread differences etc between the 2 and why parts are not always interchangeable.

There is also differences between their own products.

Colin

 

Yeah but Aussie Coleman stuff is marked Coleman and presumably was made under licence whereas the Kayen stuff is just marked as that.

Interesting that Kopsen and Nettlefold were assemblers rather than manufacturers. Did they contract out the manufacture of the individual parts?

 

Mick and Pete: thanks for the Kayen parts' list - that's really useful. I note the dome shaped top insect shield, and have seen it in a few photos. Was it ever used by Tilley?

The few Kayen's I've dealt with have had Tilley as well as Australian made parts, probably reflecting the fact that post WW2 K and N used and supplied residual Tilley stock as well as Australian manufactured parts.

The Shed-man should note the Kayen reflector: it's a straight copy.

Cheers

Tony

 

One thing I note is that the burner dome (211) in the parts list is dome shaped whereas the Kayen ones I have are flat on top.

 

Forgot to say thanks for the parts list. Now it would be interesting to know the diameter of the top of the shade, the side length and how high the top of the shade is above the ring that rests on the gallery. I'm guessing they could be similar to the contempory Aladdin shades.

 

The main reason why Kayen parts are not interchangeable is that they were made 800 klms apart. Sydney as opposed to Melbourne. Given different tooling and threads its no wonder nothing fits.

Also combined in the mix is changing suppliers to be competitive price wise as the years progressed.

Yes, Tilley cocks are interchangeable but not always the case. The same with Tilley generators into Kayen cocks. A real minefield if you are trying to put some sense into a complex question.

Coleman Canada Export Managers were in Melbourne & SA in 1949 trying to stitch up a lost market. They compromised a lost course " by arrangement " hence still maintaining a market share of sorts.

At this stage there is no evidence to confidently prove who made the Aussie Coleman's and Coleman Stoves in this period. Hearsay evidence supports Austramax and reports of a Manufacturing plant in Melbourne.

Just a couple of snippets from Newspaers of the time. It should be noted that Coleman Thomas came into play in 1954 in an agreement with Coleman Canada



I cannot at this stage find any evidence that Palmer etc actually did make Coleman Lanterns.

In talking with Graham P its a similar situation with pumps and engines.

Colin

 

Thanks Mick & Pete this is the first "Paper" I have seen from Kayen also the models #s for Industrial, Hand, and Floodlights.

Re Colin`s reference to Aussie Colemans their mixing chamber and Austramax`s are almost identical, and apart from the font`s so are the lamps.

Nills, all my Kayens are dome top 211`s some domed insect screens AP2 & HL7 total 8+ only 2 are Nettlefold

The Engines Colin referred to were Copies of Fuller & Johnson farm pumpers even the main part #s match, made in Australia branded as Southern Cross, Buzzacott, & Roseberry at least.

Graham::

 

Here is a photo of Kayen burners
Left on is Nettlefold right is Kopsen.
Note the difference in size of Nettlefold one
longer in all respects and thinner air tubes to .

Bob .

 

Here is the photo of the 2 hoods left is Nettlefold right is Kopsen.,The one on the left is taller to
and has different shape air buttons to .
So each company had there differences .


Bob .

 

True... mine are domed but I have seen photos of 'flat tops'. It is probably additional proof that the Kayen was a local (Australian) fix for filling the demand for lighting after WW2 when our government brought in trade restrictions...

 

Is this true ?

 

@Handi-man

If they didn't "manufacture" them, someone in Australia (most likely separately in both Melbourne and Sydney) made the components for them. It could be there were different sources for different components (if not "manufactured" by either of the Kayen partners).

[Re the Coleman reference above: Note that it is very likely that Colton Palmer in Adelaide did manufacture Australian-made Coleman lanterns between c1950 and 1954 when they closed. Coleman's operations moved to Melbourne (to Coleman-Thomas). Exactly where the lanterns and stoves were manufactured and by whom is still a bit of conjecture, but the assembly/distribution was by Coleman-Thomas (Melbourne) from the mid 1950's to at least the end of 1960)].

Cheers

Tony

 

Yes it was usual for a company like Kopsen to contract out to smaller engineering shops for the manufacture of the press dies and jigs and stuff like that.

Were the Kayen founts made by hand on a spinning lathe ? This was a special skill not seen much these days .

From what I understand Austramax did the whole manufacturing job themselves inhouse in the one factory. Anybody know more ?

 

@Handi-man

Austramax did have (and still has) its own plant and equipment for the major parts of the Austramax.

Tony