At Grace's Guide it is claimed that Tilley was producing paraffin lamps during World War I for the British army. Does anyone know more about those lamps? Maybe someone even has a picture or some technical details? And which lamps did Tilley produce before that time - during the almost 100 years since its establishment? Oh, and about the X246B/500 Series - when exactly was that made?
Hello I'm no expert on Tilley Lanterns but I don't believe they made them during WWI. I think they started production around 1919 or 1920, at the end of the war (1918). Neil is the real expert on Tilley. I think the X246B started about 1964.
My primary collecting interest is British and Commonwealth militaria with an emphasis on WWI. If fact it was my militaria collecting that got me started on GPAs. I have never seen any evidence of Tilley or Coleman lanterns in use during the '14-'18 war. The only GPAs I have any photographic proof of are Primus/Optimus style brass stoves. Those would have most likely been private purchase items. I don't know of any GPAs being issue items in WWI.
Hi ! I emailed Graces guide some weeks back explaining that they have the wrong information about Tilley lamps. But got no reply ! The adverts they have from somebody , I guess a fellow collector look good but the written info to accompany the adverts is just " total garbidge ". It was the second world war that gave " The tilley lamp " its status. The key point about Tilley lamps since 1919 / 20 is its portability and use of paraffin. mick
Okay, I thought so - that info on Grace's was wrong. But still: Tilley did something during WW I and before. What did they do? Maybe not pressure lanterns but then something else that might have been popular during WW I? And also - which Tilley models were popular during WW II, and who used them? I thought that all the soldiers had Vapalux lanterns at that time?
Before Tilley started producing paraffin pressure lamps (1920 circa) they made town gas lamps and speaker tubes for large houses etc.. Tilley had to reduce the range of lamps etc., which they produced during WW2., but the PL., 53 and the TL-10 were two models which were still made, Jeff.
Hi ! The Tilley family moved from Newport Pagnell a rural farming area , in the 1830's to start a new life in east London in the Shoreditch / Kingsland Road area as gas engineers. I guess as this was an up and coming area on the edge of Northeast London business as gas engineer / worker would have been good. Before 1900 three generations of the Tilley family were listed as gas fitters . Oswold Tilley died in action in 1915 but I suspect some of the Tilley brothers were exempt from being called up to fight in the first world war as Government contracts were demanding for gas illumination. The brothers would have seen the work and lamp inventions of Blanchard and Kitson and by 1919 were keen to add their new invention to an ever increasing market here in London from Europe and the USA. If you are reading this note from outside the UK. Newport Pagnell to most people in this country is a service station on the M1 Motorway Junction 14 heading north some 50 miles from London. Arthur Kitson and Arthur Blanchard ? Were very successful lamp makers and their lamps covered lighthouses , street lighting , engine sheds ,factories , agriculture and domestic and a 1000 more places I guess ! Hopefully this answers your question on the Tilley brothers before their inventions of 1919 / 20. I would like to think all these inventors knew each other as all working in same area of London and maybe all went out drinking together after work !! I know dream on mick !! mick
Hi Mick - this is a great story! And filling out many of the gaps in my knowledge. But one more thing really puzzles me: what happened to that blowpipe mentioned in Wikipedia? It doesn't seem to appear anywhere in the story, and neither in Jim Dicks book.
Thanks, Jeff - do you know if Tilley's war time models were actually used for any war purposes or if they were "just" popular for domestic use?
Hi ! The Wikipedia has got the history wrong that includes the blow lamp being part of tilley lamp invention. You have the history of Tilley in the Book by Jim Dick , written in Australia . I know ! I helped Jim with the archive research for the book here in England. mick
Thank you both. Mick, I think that it is safe to claim that history never ends - in every sense of the words. I like the book on Tilley very much and I think that you and Jim have done a great work in sourcing a lot of interesting and useful information, including model descriptions etc. and images. Were it not for this book, I would be considerable less knowing - and also less poor, since the book really do inspire to buy more lamps... Please bear with me when I keep asking about details that might not matter much - I am just this way, trying to tie up all the lose ends that I can see so far. I was a bit confused about the first 100 years of Tilley's history, but you have now described those very well. I still am a bit confused about the WW II years - page 17 of the book gave me an impression of almost nothing being produced, apart from military lanterns, between 1941 and 1946, and still, for instance the AL21 was announced in 1941 and the supposed export model EX100 was produced almost only through the war years. And I see the Vapalux as a more modern lantern than the PL series, which makes me wonder why the army didn't just focus on the Vapalux. And I still do not know what happened to that hydro-pneumatic blowpipe of John Tilley Actually I am confused about that one because it is also known that Carl Richard Nyberg patented what must be about a similar lamp in 1881 - considerably later - just for a different fuel, and only after that time this type of powerful blowlamp became widespread. So why didn't Tilley's blowpipe shape the development of the Tilley company?
John Tilley's hydropneumatic blowpipe was an instrument to aid laboratory testing and glass blowing. A contemporary description dated 1814 can be found here: https://archive.org/stream/jstor-30075506/30075506_djvu.txt There are some anomalies in the text, but probably due to a scanned translation from 'old' English. With regard to Tilley's production during WWII (and this is pure conjecture) like so many manufacturing companies their output would have been turned to armaments and munitions, and whilst this is widely recognised today, certain elements of the official secrets act may have kept some information back and affected the historical records.
Thank you very much, this is a great help. It is interesting to see that John Tilley was a travelling glass-blower. That, perhaps, explains why there was no connection afterwards between this invention and the Tilley plumping/gas engineering company. Now I could even be in doubt if John Tilley was at all involved with that company? Maybe just a relative, or maybe not even that - just someone with the same last name?
Tilley made a limited number of models during WW2 as Jeff says but they also made the Floodlights and searchlight. They also made some product for the civillian market. The home front was important so the TL10 table lamp was certainly made at the time and I suspect they may also have made the TL14 and radiators. ::Neil::
Yes, that explains partly something - I have been wondering why Aladdin after the war went into a collaboration with Willis & Bates rather than Tilley, but Tilley was probably seen more as a serious competitor while Willis & Bates was small enough to be a trusted subcontractor (just guessing). The situation would not have been the same if Tilley had been away from the civilian market during the war years.
Hi Jorgen. You need to spend some more money and buy another lamp collector's book . Vapalux and Bialaddin Pressure Lamps Written by Ian Ashton Look on internet for blurb.com They will give you a price to send to your home address. You need this book to tell yourself all the missing answers. Its a good read. Ian has done Willis and Bates proud just a shame they don't exist anymore in this country ! mick
Jorgen Hi ! Good glad your getting the Willis and bates book . Now you will understand how Tilley and willis & bates worked together from roughly 1924 / 25 till about 1938. War pending for one reason or more companies separated and also 200 miles apart from each other. Big contracts for lighting were being handed out by government contracts for war effort. Easier if companies separate. AM " Air Ministry " contracts went to Willis and Bates 1938 start of Vapalux. Tilley already had the railway very big contracts here at home and in many other countries ( as Neil has explained FL6 and SL1 and AL21 plus track lamps ,Heaters and lamps , etc ). Neil says all usable and being made during war years for immediate use . Tilley also had the Fire Brigade contracts and in the war to come ARP and structural engineering contractors to keep going during the war years. PL 53's look fantastic but the Vapalux E41 is a lot more stable in a muddy trench some where. Don't quote me on this but PL53's were used every where in this country for war effort but for stability I would favour Vapalux and I think the Air ministry knew this. Thousands of Vapalux lamps would have seen active service. Prehaps best summed up by by George Orwell's animal farm book :- Four legs good two legs bad !! Willis and Bates / Aladdin Industries ? Read the book ! mick
Yes, Orwell gave the pigs a winning argument there I have just now lined up in front of me what could have been a line-up in a shop during the war years: a Tilley EX100 and a Vapalux 300X (actually, a Bialaddin). I do not own neither a PL53 nor an E41, so this must do - and I honestly do not believe that it changes a lot on my conclusion. if I was to take one of these two with me in a war, or out fishing, and I needed to buy it first - which one would I buy? There seems to be at least 20 years of development between the two, even though they were put to market at about the same time. Of course the Tilley has a very British look that people were used to - while the Vapalux is a bit more like the German lanterns. So when fighting Germany, maybe the British look is intuitively preferred? Tilley's secret weapon (which I don't understand that their competitors never copied) is that everything can be serviced without using any tools - just your fingers are needed, unless you want to replace the pump leather, but that is then really the only tool-requiring part. The Vapalux is to some degree equally easy to service, but getting access to the control cock requires a screwdriver, and the pump requires a special tool for servicing the non-return valve. Of course, tools can be brought with you to the front - or out fishing - but if you loose the tools it is like loosing the lamp. Apart from that, the Vapalux wins on all other accounts. It is easier to light, more resistant against mud, more compact, has better wind protection, the vaporizer is better protected, and so on. The frame is more fragile but can be replaced (if the bolts break off the Tilley, it's lost). I have also lined up the just about newest creations from the two: an X246B from the 80'ies and a military surplus M320 of about the same age or newer. With the new ones, they have almost caught up with each other: Vapalux still needs the tool for the pump but is at the same time also still easier to light. The Tilley hood is slightly better protected against the weather, while the pre-heater will help keep out some of the rain and mud better on the Vapalux. So they are are very even - however, Tilley has been so kind to weld the protection ring around the cage to the cage while the similar Vapalux ring is supposed to just stay there magically, which it doesn't want to. But all in all, those two models of today are not light-years from each other - they are both very good and practical devices of about the same, practical size, and in my opinion they are both quite nice to look at. So if today a war would be threatening and the military should choose one of the new ones, or if you today would like to bring one with you on your fishing trip, it would depend on the details which one would be chosen - but back then in the early 40'ies the Vapalux lanterns were the most suitable. Oh yes: quite funny, actually: which one has four legs today?
Hi Jorgen ! Give me a clue where in Sweden are you and you mention or suggest you have a web site ? Sadly what I know about your country is next to nothing. Meanwhile the common link here with all these lamps is a box to transport the lamp in . Even if just going down the road with 50 lamps they need protection . Then there's the need for paraffin ( kerosene ) and meths to start lamps with and a supply of spare glasses and mantles. It was your country that got it right with Primus stoves carrying tools and containers in tin for fuel and meths allowing the stove to be refilled very clever ! After the war years Tilley had a wonderfull lamp called the hospital lamp the boxes were stamped 1955 era but were complete with all requirments. But no kerosene ! How barmy is that ? and the meths bottle is on its side so again proberbly all leaked away before use. But all the kit in the box with the Tilley wall lamp it really is great to look at ! So Jorgen there's the challenge to make a light weight box for lamp , fuel , tools and a lighter !preferable stackable as well . mick
Mick - Malmö and lysilampen.com. And I am not a real Swede (only a Dane living in Sweden) so I can just, like everybody else, admire what these great people have accomplished in this area (and many others). You are into something important, I think - a lot more than the mere design and quality of the product can affect the sales. The box can make the difference, and so can the skills of the sales people, personal networks, and even external events or trends. As an example of the latter could be mentioned the fear of petrol, which seems to have been cleverly and constantly exercised by Tilley's marketing people, making paraffin almost look like their invention. But most of the selling arguments of that time have lost their value today. Only one remains: the power of the light. Boxes, paraffin bottles and all the other brilliant inventions have now all been made obsolete by the two modern times inventions: the long lasting battery and the energy saving white LED. It is not a mystery why military today have thrown out all the pressure lamps and focused on LED lights instead. But it all happened at a time where most of the old pressure lamp manufacturers had lost their momentum and only Coleman, I think, was still strong enough to exploit the new opportunities. LED lanterns are still new, however, and just like it happened with pressure lamps long ago, there should be room for some of the existing brands to be applied to the new technology. Maybe customers would be really happy to see a Tilley LED lantern on the market? About the box without paraffin: maybe they were thinking that the paraffin was already available? Like when there is no water bottle included with a stove. Did some of the vehicles perhaps run on this fuel? Or the electrical generators? I tend to believe that such an omission is not the result of the designers being idiots - there probably is a good reason for it, even though it can be difficult to see it through today's glasses. But of course, sometimes they really are idiots... One example is that nice old duplex burner wick lamp from England I have, made with a metal foot under a porcelain vase. In order to attach the foot to the vase a hole has been drilled in the latter and a bolt put through - with the result that the paraffin is running out of through that hole. This is just about in the same league as the otherwise nice old British motorcycles and cars that were notoriously dripping oil. As if the engineers simply didn't care about it. My old BSA dripped completely dry during maybe a year where it was not being used.
