Amish mix ?

Hi all
Just wondering ....
There is some info on mixing 25-30% Coleman fuel (or panel wipe) with paraffin (Amish mix) to be used in pressure paraffin lamps - vapalux, petromax Tilley etc for cleaner burn less smell etc

Would it be a good idea / safe worth while to use 25-30% Aspen fuel with Paraffin or 28 second oil ? Would this burn ok less smell ? Cleaner etc ?

Thanks for any thoughts
Simon

 

The kerosene that we get here doesn't smell at all when it burns. If you sniff just above the lantern it's possible to recognize some smell. Also when it's in some container and by sniffing from the open cap there is almost no smell.

One dude was thinking that maybe one reason for Tilley vaporizer melting could be too well burning kerosene. Another reason might be that specially on indoor use dome will not cool down since nowadays room temperature is a bit higher than during old days.

I cannot see reason why at lanterns mentioned mix would be necessary except maybe on cold temperatures (below -25° C). For stoves I have thought about that kind of mix since silent burner stoves seems to burn better when kerosene is new or with better quality kerosene.

 

Coleman fuel is simply petrol - I don't know about Aspen fuel.

Filling petrol in the tank, no matter how many or few percent, would lead to all the same problems that could come out of using pure petrol. Some lamps are made for it, others are not. Those which are not could be dangerous to use with petrol, according to the manufacturers, so I wouldn't do it.

I don't think that it applies to pressure lamps, but other types of liquid fuel based lamps can explode due to the heat igniting the vapours in the tank or due to the flame to be able to "backtrack" the fuel line, down to the tank. Pressure lamps, on the other hand, might have pressure release mechanisms (like the Vapalux, you mention) that could lead out petrol vapours near the flame or hot parts, which could ignite it.

 

The Amish do this only on lamps and lanterns like the Coleman that have a positive brass-on-brass sealing valve on the pump and on the fuel valve.
It is unsafe to do this on lanterns and lamps like Tilley, Vapalux, Petromax etc. that have rubber seals on the pump NRV and control cock. If a seal leaks or fails while the lamp is hot the lamp will likely become a flame thrower and/or fire ball.

If your lamp smells when it burns there is undoubtedly something wrong with it. It could be a miniscule fuel leak on a seal near the control cock or an air/gas leak in the burner assembly. It could also be worn out vapouriser or burner parts or a mantle problem. It could also be a partial blockage in an air tube.

 

If your kerosene-lamp is adjusted correctly, there will be almost no but Little smell from you lamp, depending on temperature too. A kerosene-pressurelamp will always smell though.
Gasoline- and alcohollamps dont smell if they are burning correct. Gasoline lamps smells a bit when you light them up and turns them of.
You write Petromax and Tilley burners. The easiest lamp to adjust correct is the Petromax-types.
I dont know what country your city, Stevenage is in, but Sweden made some awesome Petromax-types as Optimus and Primus, running either on alcohol, gasoline and the smelly kerosene.
Here is a former discussion about the smell - not the "Amishmix".

http://0flo.com/index.php?posts/25059

Here is some amish-talk:

http://0flo.com/index.php?posts/39542

Claus C

 

Mixing a little petrol or Aspen with paraffin is not the same as putting petrol in the lamp. Once mixed the mix is permanent and will not seperate out...

The "risk" will probably be proportional to the ammount added and some people have suggested it as a way to "improve" some modern paraffins when used in stubborn lamps.

 

Mostly I have about 10 to 25% "wasbenzine" in my Petromax ... Never had issues with it.

I've found this earlier post interesting to read: [url=http://0flo.com/index.php?threads/6541

 

Coleman fuel is not petrol. It is nearly pure naphtha with apprx 1% of other additives such as
rust inhibitors. Much different than petrol/gasoline.

 

How do you define naphta?

 

That might be the case but petrol consists of lighter hydrocarbons than kerosene and they will gladly steam off at a lower temperature, no matter what they are mixed with - so they produce highly flammable gases in the tank.

I read today in a Swedish magazine from 1946 how Standard Oil had then just invented something fantastic: a kind of petrol that couldn't burn... Well, it could, but not easily. Whatever they had invented back then, I guess that it did not have many of those lighter hydrocarbons.

 

naphta, coleman fuel, car gas (US: gasoline, UK: petrol) benzine
are all characterized by their ability to light and burn at room temperature if you stick a naked flame to it

Paraffin does not light and burn if you stick a naked flame to it at room temperature

Basically he length of the carbon chains of these "Carbohydrates" determines this volatility. (Remember that the vapor and not the liquid burns)

C3 (propane) or C4 (butane) is already evaporated (long) before room temparature.

"Benzine" etc is liquid but evaporates at room temperatures and consist of carbon chains roughly between C5-C9. Naphta is a less refined fraction than f.i. Coleman Fuel or car gas. Car gas has additives that will block your lamp and are bad for your health.

Then paraffin can be light or heavy, light paraffin is approx. C9-C11.
An even heavier fuel is diesel.

Wikipedia has some nice reading about it, if you care

Hope this helps. If you already knew this but read it and that annoyed you, then I'm sorry for that

Cheers,
Peter

 

I think the problem is that Jørgen read the Word Nafta, and in Danmark is hydro-desulfurized raw-nafta the same as kerosene. I find Nafta the same as kerosene and in Dutch, petroleum.

Claus C

 

Well, actually not, Claus I am asking because it can mean a lot of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha


Ron Brown writes about Coleman fuel, having tested everything and found out how it works (and I believe him): http://www.rc-publishing.com/ - it is all American, as we have or have had none of this in Denmark and Sweden.

Ron says: "The gasoline used in early cars was “white gas” so named because it was as clear as water. White gas was simply gasoline without additives. Today, the “regular” gas you buy at the pump (with additives) is 87 octane. Old-time white gas was only 50 octane.

...

Even before World War II, gas stations were pumping leaded gas (dyed red so that customers wouldn’t get it mixed up with white gas). To make itself even more distinctive, Sunoco introduced Blue Sunoco. In Junior High, I pumped Blue Sunoco at my uncle’s gas station. Red, white, and blue. Patriotic, eh?
White gas became harder and harder to find. But Coleman lanterns still needed it; leaded gas would clog a lantern’s generator and the byproducts of combustion were not healthy to breathe. So Coleman began selling “Coleman fuel” white gas sold under a brand name. Lantern owners began lugging home cans of Coleman fuel just as the earliest automobile owners lugged home cans of white gas.
Coleman took pains to establish their product as different from (and superior to) white gas at the pump. To make the distinction visceral, Coleman fuel got a splash of green dye and a higher price tag.
It is well to remember that Coleman lanterns were not designed to run on Coleman fuel. Coleman lanterns existed forty years before Coleman fuel existed. Coleman lanterns were designed to run on white gas."

So this is what I mean when claiming that Coleman fuel is simply petrol - an old kind of petrol, sure, but still petrol and still igniting at 40 degrees celcius.

 

This is certainly not annoying - it is pure wisdom.

But it helps to remember that the petrochemical science is not an exact one - so basically anything can be called for instance kerosene or paraffin if the manufacturers wish to do so. Besides, naming of these things vary a lot around the globe and confusion is almost guaranteed.

 

Coleman Fuel, by Coleman's own MSDS is 99%+ napahta, which is what white gas is also called
according to Coleman's own website.
Naphtha's similarity to car gas goes only so far as to being an ingredient in car gas. It is not the
same as car gas any more than milk is the same as biscuits, just because milk is used to make biscuits.
Yes, they will both burn readily with a simple ignition source. So will alcohol, and it is also
not car gas.

"Naphtha" in Coleman's MSDS is described as "light hydrotreated distillate".
If you look up the ingredients in car gas, it will also show a quantity of naphtha, but it is
far less than 99%, and car gas contains about 80 other ingredients. Naphtha is just a feedstock
for car gas. They have to start with something, and naphtha is one of those things.

Coleman currently makes lanterns that will run on unleaded car gas as well as Coleman fuel (naphtha).
They made two main changes to the older designs of their lanterns to accomplish this. First, they
changed the anti rust coating in the founts so it would not be destroyed by the chems in unleaded
car gas, and then they changed all of their generators for the "newer" models by making them
larger in diameter, as well as a few other smaller changes to the inside of the gens.

 

Dean, you are no doubt right about it all Modern car gas is definitely a different and more complex product.

But I think that we can safely assume that Coleman Fuel will evaporate and ignite at about the same temperatures as car gas? And therefore I would find it dangerous to advice anyone to mix it with the kerosene in a kerosene lamp or lantern.

Probably nothing will happen to most of the careful people doing it, but there is a risk.

As I am not a petroleum engineer or a chemist there are no doubt a zillion details in this that I am not aware of - I am just interested in maintaining a safe use of liquid fueled lighting.

 

Jorgen, I completely agree that Coleman fuel, car gas and similar fuels should not be used in kero
lanterns that have either (or both) the pump being under fuel level, or that do not have a positive
mating surface shutoff for the main fuel valve and pump check valve.
My opinion; rubber checks in either pump or fuel valve are not positive shutoffs, (Pmax & Tilley style).

 

From first principles:

1. If you have a lamp designed to run on kerosene (paraffin); and,

2. You have access to good quality kerosene,

What are the perceived advantages of mixing it with Coleman fuel or Shellite (white gas) or gasoline? I can see none - by volume, kerosene would have more stored energy that the other mentioned fuels.

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

White gas is also a cleaning agent; it is said that it keeps the inside of the lamp (including the generator) cleaner. In my personal experience it does seem to do so, although I have not tested it thoroughly.

Also the "wasbenzine" over here is cheaper than kero at 1.30 Euro/Liter vs. 2 to 5 Euro per Liter.

Cheers,
Peter

 

On this side of the planet kerosene is much cheaper than panelwipe (very expensive), Recosol R55/Shellite (at least $4 a litre), or Coleman fuel (usually at least $7 a litre).

I can buy Kerosene (JetA1) from the pump for $1.95 per litre.

I'm led to believe that almost all Kerosene sold in Australia is Jet A1 standard (so very "clean"), even the stuff that's sold dyed blue as "Diggers"...

Cheers

Tony

 

As I understand it the Amish mix is more to do with running gasoline lamps on kero than the other way round. There are some older kero lamps however that don't seem to like modern kero much and I have a few lamps that run much better on a 10/90 gasoline/kero mix. Not enough to make the fuel dangerous but makes the generation easier to maintain. ::Neil::

 

Just came to think of Britelyt. Their lamps can supposedly run on various fuels and the company gives advice on how to mix these: http://www.britelyt.com/lanterns/fuel-types/guidelines.html

 

Hmm yes Britelyt? Their advice on fuel is not always good or safe. I don't know what they are curently saying but these are the people who said you can run a Petromax on gasoline. ::Neil::

 

I wouldn't trust Britelyt as far as I could throw them. (Can't even spell their own name right..)
They suggest that it is safe to burn highly volatile fuels in lanterns that have no positive shutoff,
or have the pump check submerged in fuel and lacking an air tube.
They are trying to sell something, and all safety precautions be dashed.

 

Ah but you see they had them tested by an engineer who gave them a certificate. What they don't tell you is the engineer was only asked to certify that the lamps would work with gasoline. He was not asked to provide a safety report and did not do so. So yes they will work with gasoline. They will also explode now and then but they are not so keen to tell you of the court cases when this has happened. The product is OK as far as any modern Petromax is but the instructions and advicve is very suspect. ::Neil::

 

Then they didn't ask the engineer to test the 150 CP version, as this has been "in approval testing and final safety check" for two years now, as far as I can tell.

This, btw., points at something characteristic for the pressure lamp business at the moment: several companies claim to be manufacturing lamps and lanterns, but how many are actually doing it?

BriteLyt has not updated their website for two years. I can see some of their lanterns for sale on eBay, but not by themselves. Old stock?

Tilley is forever waiting to find a new sub-contractor for founts. One shop in Germany has new lanterns for sale, all others are out.

Vapalux has just launched a new website. Dealers have no lamps and lanterns in stock.

Austramax has no regular production, even though one shop in Australia and one in the USA have new lanterns for sale.

Coleman is there, alive and kicking.

Petromax is also alive and kicking, selling directly and through resellers.

Cixi/Sea Anchor/Butterfly is there, along with all of its OEM brands.

Kwang Hwa/Anchor seems to be operating.

Lea Hin/Ting Kwon/Butterfly seems to be operating.

Lehman's Amish Table Lamp ( https://www.lehmans.com/p-17-amish-table-lamp.aspx) can be bought - i don't know who makes it.

AIDA spare parts are made in Korea, but I have not seen new complete lamps.

And then there are several shops selling new Geniol lanterns - where do they come from?

That means Coleman, Petromax and Cixi for sure, plus the Amish Table Lamp and probably Vapalux - most others not for sure. I assume that the "not for sure" are selling very limited amounts, if any.

It has become a quite slim business, I would say. But if some of the available lamps and lanterns are exploding and the others are simply not popular with collectors, then I predict a very soon to come total stop for production of pressure lamps - not matter the fuel. then only LED-versions will be available.

 

Okay, now the Vapalux website is down again. For good reason, I would say, as it wasn't finished.

 

'Retro' seems to be big business in furniture, clothes, kitchen appliances and many other things.

If I was a struggling long term lamp company, I'd be looking at ways to get the company back on track.

Obviously I'm not in the lamp business so I don't know how difficult or expensive it would be to resurrect certain extremely popular models from by-gone days, say from the 40's, 50's and 60's. I'd look very hard at doing it though.

Tilley for instance, should look at resurecting the Queen table lamp.Surely it can't be that complicated a process to reproduce that lamp. It's not like Tilley have completely revamped their system.

If you are selling lamps you are creating a secondary industry of spare parts, which of course, your company can supply.

They simply have to find ways of creating more interest in lamps.

Perhaps I'm being too simplistic.

 

Matty, I agree. I would say that doing a little product development couldn't hurt either - most pressure lamps of today have basically not changed during the last 60 years or more.

I have seen attempts from both Petromax and Vapalux of creating special collectors' items, like a golden Petromax or a special retro-model from Vapalux. But I believe that a new idea, practical or fun, could be more effective. It has been seen with cars, where a popular new model easily can be a completely impractical one that is expensive and difficult to maintain - but it looks new!

If some would say that a pressure lamp is simply a utility, then think of all those knives and forks and pots and pans that are also "just" utilities but still keep coming in lots of new designs and making use of new patents and ideas.

One particular new design I could imagine for a pressure lamp would involve:

• Simple and clean loading of fuel (cartridges, perhaps?)
• Turn on and off by push of a button (built-in "cigarette lighter" and a simple computer for running a pre-heat procedure)
• Adjustable level of light - maybe also adjustable colour?
• Automatic pumping?
• A design that allows for multible uses (table, hanging, on a stick, etc.)
• Either modern design or very retro - perhaps inspired by a traditional paraffin wick lamp?

Modern users should not need to think too much about technical details - and fuel, spare parts, etc. should be environmental friendly and easily available.

There are a number of fuel cartridge systems available today for small wick lamps and maybe the same could be used for a pressure lamp?

 

I realise you mean product development of their kerosene products.

Is it just Coleman doing battery lamps or are others doing the same?

I wonder if Tilley have ever thought of bringing out some of their classic lamps as battery or mains electric? (Do they?) Parents might buy such a product for a kids bedroom or their own loungeroom etc. With todays RGB LED lights they can be funky and or modern.

I'm not trying to talk companies out of producing kerosene lamps, I'm suggesting if they put some thought into things they could continue on their way with the kerosene side but hugely supplement their companies income by thinking outside the box.