G'day all, I have a Nagel Chase Model 2 table lamp. This one has the rivets around the outside base of the fount. Keep in mind, Nagel Chase had three Model 2 lamps over the years, hence me being specific. I have had the lamp for two years and on and off over those two years I have attempted to light the lamp. Yesterday, I thought I'd finally beaten the many dramas associated with lighting the lamp as it did, almost for a split second, burn properly. Then out it went. After messing about for a bit I finally realised fuel wasn't getting through. So. I started with the generator. I decided that was the most likely culprit. I made sure the jet was clear and little bits of the new packing I'd installed weren't breaking off and causing dramas. With the generator off, I decided to open the valve and see if fuel was passing. Where it once was, it now was not. So, I pulled the valve assembly apart and checked it for any loose bits of the new gland nut packing I'd installed. Nothing to be found. So, it was reasonably obvious that the fuel pick up was blocked. That was a tad disappointing as I had spent a lot of time attempting to clean out the fount of this lamp years ago. It wasn't an easy job as the fuel bung has a brass tube within the tank for some unknown reason. I've seen other manufacturers do this and I have never worked out why. It makes it almost impossible to clean and fully empty the fount of fuel and of course any rubbish within the fount. Anyway, today, I ground down a long piece of fencing wire so I could get it to a small enough diameter to insert into the fuel pick up line. I couldn't see the hole to the fuel pick up as it is 3/4's of the way down the length of the stem. I had to just keep grinding the length of wire and testing to see if it would fit every now and then. I finally had the wire to a diameter that I could get to insert into the fuel line. Slowly but surely I worked the wire 'pricker' down the length of the fuel line. Then, I came to a spot where the 'pricker' simply wouldn't push through any deeper. I tried 130 PSI down the stem hoping to blow the blockage back into the fount. Nothing I did would allow me to get past the point of the blockage nor would clear the blockage. There was only one last thing I could do, something I dislike doing unless absolutely necessary, remove the stem from the fount and hopefully the fuel line would follow. To remove the stem, I had to use a torch to melt the solder and at the same time use a set of vice grips to grab the stem and add pressure while the heat was there. I was able to grab the stem with the vice grips with enough force to eventually loosen the stem and get it unwinding without damaging the stem. Amen for that. I had a little trouble getting the fuel pick up line out of the fount. I assumed the line would be reasonably straight but there seemed to be a kink in it, so I was tilting the stem at all sorts of angles trying to free it. I didn't want the fuel line to be loose and fall off the end of the stem and back into the fount. I would have had no hope of recovering it if it did drop into the fount. Well, eventually I got the fuel line out and also got the shock of my life. The reason for the blockage became quite evident. A complete kink in the pick up line probably done at the time of manufacture.
Sure needs a new fuel pick up tube, Matt! Good job to finally find the problem and and I hope to see that lamp lit soon, when you have fixed the problem with the fuel pick up. /Conny
@Conny C Thanks mate, I'd like to see it lit too. That's why I have continually tried to get it going. It is a wonderful lamp to look at, lot's of cool engineering gone into it. The supplementary generator heater is always cool to see on any lamp. I just twisted the old fuel line and it snapped at the kink. The line is blocked. The small part that was left attached to the stem is clear. This was the point in time yesterday when I thought it was going to light and burn properly. Well, perhaps 10 seconds later than when the photo was taken. I was using a Tilley pre-heat thingy as I keep forgetting to make my own torch. The Tilley one worked OK. The other good thing about removing the stem / fuel line is, I can now rinse out the fount and get the liquid out through the stem bung hole. I just had quite a bit of stuff come out. From this angle, you can see the supplementary heater working from a previous effort, earlier in the day, to light the lamp. (Shed door closed)
That kink looks fresh my bet would be that the tube was curved to the side and stuck by gum to the tank, and when unscrewing has twisted until it came free . You may be able to cut the damage out and solder a sleeve of slightly larger pipe over the break
@JEFF JOHNSON @LanternTom Thanks gents. @Graham P The fresh bit you can see is because I broke off a piece of flaky stuff there. I see what you are saying and we may never know what actually happened because I couldn't see inside the fount. I did look for some gum or a place where gum was holding the fuel tube but couldn't see anything. My thoughts is that the fuel tube was straight but a fraction too long. I suspect the fuel tube grabbed the bottom of the fount whilst the stem was being screwed in resulting in the twisting of the fuel tube up near the stem insert. Graham, I took your advice on the sleeve. I'll put what I did in another post. Here I'd like to show the cleaning of the inside of the fount. Two years ago I attempted to clean this fount but it wasn't easy, actually, it was virtually impossible. Still, I thought I did a reasonable job. How wrong I was. Impossible that is until I removed the fuel tube this time around. Because the fuel filler bung hole has a brass sleeve within the tank it makes it virtually impossible to completely empty dirty fuel out of the filler hole. As for debris forget it. With the fuel tube removed I had a hole that I could get all the dirty fuel and debris out of. It took quite some time and patience to thoroughly clean the inside of this fount. The photos I show don't reveal the full extent of the junk that was in this fount. I didn't photograph the aftermath of the initial rinses of the fount that removed the sludge and a lot of flaked off metal. The photographs also don't reveal the 'silt' that was caught by the filter in the funnel I used. After getting the initial heavy sludge out of the fount, I discarded the vinegar and started again with a new 2 litre bottle. I put a 3rd of the new bottle of vinegar in the fount swished it about and left it. Every half hour or so I would swish the vinegar around in the fount and then empty the fount into an ice cream container. I would then pour the vinegar back into the fount using a funnel with a strainer. I would then discard the large flaky bits from the ice cream container and wipe out any sludge. Having a clean container meant, each time I poured the tainted vinegar from the fount into it, I could get a visual of how much junk was coming out and mentally compare it to the last lot that came out. At first, I didn't think the junk would ever stop coming out. After filling the fount through the strainer on the 3rd re-fill, the strainer was so clogged with sludge the vinegar couldn't pass. All up, I had to rinse the fine sludge out of the filter perhaps 6 times to allow the vinegar to flow through it and back into the fount. After 10 rinses of the fount and the cleaning of the ice cream container, I discarded the first lot of the new vinegar used and added another 1/3 of a bottle of clean vinegar. By this time, I wasn't waiting 30 minutes between rinses, I was just doing them one after the other. Filling, emptying and re-filling the fount and each time cleaning the ice cream container out. I also used a rubber mallet to tap the base plate to dislodge any loose flaky metal and or any rustproofing treatment done at the factory. After 10 or so rinses with the 2nd lot of new vinegar, I could tell I was getting somewhere as each time, less and less junk would come out. I discarded the 2nd lot of vinegar and tipped the last 3rd of the bottle of vinegar into the fount. Immediately I could tell the difference. Whilst there was the odd bit of flaky stuff coming out, the vinegar was clean. No more sludge! The clean vinegar photographed was the last of 10 rinses. The fount was now clean. To remove any excess vinegar from the fount, I blew compressed air at 130PSI through the fount. The air went in the fuel filler hole and exited the the fuel tube bung hole. I then inverted the fount and left it in the sun for about an hour. Any heavy vinegar would drip out (not that there was any) and the rest would either evaporate or condensate to the base plate. To remove the condensated vinegar, I poured in some methylated spirits which collects the moisture, swished it around and then poured it out. Any remaining methylated spirits evaporates and in any case, it is harmless. The above is probably simple common sense and is nothing new to most collectors. I am trying to stress a point though., probably more for those just getting into collecting, Rather than close enough being good enough when cleaning a fount, there is a light at the end of the tunnel if you just keep at it and get ALL the junk out. When I saw how clear the 3rd lot of vinegar being used was, that was something else and it was really cool and it felt like an achievement. All up, I did perhaps 50 rinses and it took the best part of 24hrs. (I'd left vinegar in the fount overnight). I just realised I had a photo of the heavier stuff coming out of the fount. That and worse probably came out of the fount 35 of the 50 rinses. I wish I had of photographed the initial rinses. Second lot of once clean vinegar. Third and last lot of clean vinegar used. The flaky bits. Remember, perhaps 35 rinses produced at least this much junk.
I did nothing to protect the outside of the fount whilst cleaning the inner fount. I was always going to polish the outer. When I received the lamp 80% of the chrome was missing so for me it was an easy decision to remove the last of the chrome and polish the fount. I have never regretted that decision. I have cleaned the fount up to a stage where I just have to give it a final polish. Prior to that final polish I will sand and paint the base plate. Despite the appearance in the photo, there is only minor light surface rust on the base plate.
Congratulations Matty. Cleaning can be time consuming to get it right. I love the look of this lamp and look forward to seeing it assembled and running
@ROBBO55 Thanks Martin, I too am looking forward to the lamp being assembled and working. I have painted the base plate. I did it in a copper colour because I felt it suited the lamp. After a quick rub with some steel wool and a wipe with thinners, I spot painted the bare metal with etch primer. I then used a general primer and then the copper finish coats. I have an idea in regards to the base plate and something my daughter is involved with. 3 ingredients , the lamp, myself and this website. I hope I can convince my daughter I hope to try and light the lamp tonorrow, all going well.
The extension tube on the filler is to prevent over filling and ensure there is an air volume above the fuel. Irritating for is when trying to clean out a tank but it was perhaps sensible for customers who may not have realised you actually need some air in the tank. When you have a broken off fuel pick up tube you can just slip a plastic tube over it. It won't collapse because the pressure is equalised and it can be easily cut to length. ::Neil::
@Mackburner Neil, Thanks for that. I think the first time I noticed the sleeve on a tank, it was on a hollow wire tank used for lighting systems. The plastic sleeve idea to repair fuel pick up tubes is a good one, that is for sure. With the modern petroleum resistant products available it wouldn't be too hard to find some rubber tube that would slip over, repair and hold a broken brass fuel tube. In my repair, I removed a nipple from the end of a bit of broken hollow wire feed tube. Using a press drill and a 3.5mm drill bit, I enlarged the hole in the nipple so it could be used as a sleeve to slip over the fuel tube attached to the stem of the lamp. I soldered that in place. I then used a piece of hollow wire tubing, cut to length, and soldered that on the opposite end, forming a fuel tube that was complete.
I finally got the lamp to light but with disappointing results. The mantle burns bright but there is a lot of flame burning outside the mantle. I originally had a 300CP mantle on and then tried a 500CP. On both occasions I let the lamp burn for a good time hoping it might just settle down. I tried a shade to see if that made any difference, which it didn't. I then wasn't keen on leaving the shade on with the possibility of open flames hitting it. Two years ago, I thought I'd cleaned the mixing chamber out pretty well. I didn't bother with it again this time. I suppose a wasp or other bug may have crawled up there so tomorrow I'll clean the chamber out. I had 20 PSI in the fount. After cleaning the chamber tomorrow I'll try again @20 PSI and if no good, I'll try 15 PSI. The last photo shows the the lamp without flames outside the mantle. That was after I'd shut the valve off for the last time tonight. That does make me wonder if 20 PSI is too much pressure.
The lamp will stand a deal more than 20psi. It might be an idea to check the generator packing is clean. They have asbestos wound round the pricker rod and it can get very clogged with carbon especially with the kero burners as yours is. Maybe this a lesson in egg sucking but worth a mention perhaps? ::Neil::
@Mackburner Yes, absolutely the packing was worth mentioning more so as I myself hadn't mentioned it. When I got the lamp, the packing in the generator was pretty ordinary. Being asbestos, I discarded it. I replaced the asbestos packing with torch wick. That wasn't very successful as the torch wick tends to burn within the generator. The torch wick blackens and becomes powdery which obviously isn't ideal considering you are trying to keep the jet from blocking. Today, I removed the torch wick and cut a length of stainless steel mesh which I rolled and wrapped around the pricker rod. I'd have used brass mesh if I had some. I suspect it would have been a lot easier to roll the brass mesh as opposed to the stainless mesh. In the end, I was happy with how the mesh packing turned out and performed. The lamp didn't pulse, so in that regards, the mesh was a great success. I think the jet is OK and the pricker engages and clears the jet. Neil, I used 9 thou piano wire to test the size of the jets orifice. It fit very well. Are you aware what size a new jet orifice, for this lamp, would have been? This is the pricker engaged in the jets orifice. Burnt Torch Wick Cut Mesh followed by Rolled Mesh
@Mackburner Neil, I cleaned the mixing chamber out. It was an unremarkable exercise. I decided to tackle a job that I had been avoiding. The generator screws into the burner via a thread on the jet. At the other end, the generator screws into the pricker rod assembly which then screws into a gland nut at 90deg of the jet. I couldn't get the jet to tighten up into the burner and have the opposite end line up with the gland nut. This photo shows where the bottom pricker assembly would face when the jet end is screwed tight into the burner. It was 90 degs out. The proper way to solve the problem would have been to remove the silver solder that seals the jet to the generator tube and then tighten or loosen the generator tube within the jet, until the pricker assembly lined up with the gland nut on the lamp. Then of course, re-silver solder the jet back to the generator tube. Silver soldering is out of my skill set so I didn't want to remove the silver solder as I couldn't replace it. After trying a number of things that didn't work, the only thing I could think of to have the jet tight within the burner and the pricker assembly to line up with the gland nut on the lamp was to add a washer between the jet and where the jet screws into the burner. That has worked but how long the washer lasts because of the heat it will be subjected to is any ones guess. I'm nearly at the stage of lighting the lamp again. I am going through my ritual of the lamp sitting for an hour or so with fuel and 20 PSI of air in the fount. I always do that after working on valves/gland nuts on lamps. Silly - probably, it is just what I do.
Sitting pondering the lamp and looking at how brightly and steadily it was burning - apart from the flames and black spot - I couldn't think that there was anymore I could physically change to get the lamp to burn. Then it dawned on me, it might be the pressure in the fount. I had put 20PSI (using a compressor and gauge) and I didn't think 20PSI would be much of a problem. I decided I'd reduce the pressure to 15 PSI. Having done that, the lamp still had decent flames outside of the mantle but the black spot wasn't wasn't as bad. Before I lit the lamp at 15PSI, I'd burnt the black spot off the mantles with a propane torch. I let the lamp burn for a bit at 15PSI but nothing really changed. I decided I'd go down to 10PSI. Having done that, the flames were still there much nowhere near as bad as at 20PSI and 15PSI. The mantle burnt brightly and steadily. I decided to leave the lamp to use up some pressure and see what happened. Well, eventually, the burning outside of the mantle stopped and there was no sign of black spot. This is the lamp after burning for 40 minutes starting at 10PSI. These photo's are taken in the daylight, within a shed where it was still quite light. No flash was used. What shade looks best size wise? 14" of the plain white shade or 10" of the Coleman shade? The last photo is of the lamp burning at 20PSI
Great job on that lamp Matt. I think 10" size shade looks best; originally it had a 10" ribbed opal dome shade, like the Coleman 307. /Conny
@Conny C Thank you Conny. Thanks also for your thoughts on the 10" and 14" shade. The lamp is quite large and imposing compared to some others and I've always wondered if it looked better the the larger shade. Conny, I wonder if the lamp, with the ribbed opal dome shade was Model 2A? The two lamps in these 1915 Nagel Chase catalogue are Models 2B and 2C @Mackburner
Matt. Yes handy book the PLC. I refer to it all the time. I may have wrote it but I don't always remember it all. The clocking of the generator to fit into the lower gland is easy. You are over thinking the job. The generator scews into the burner casting for sure but it does not need to be tight. You just ease it off untill the lower gland fits. You don't need a gas tight seal up there so whilst it may not feel right it actually doesn't matter. ::Neil::
Great thread here. I have this same burner lamp here that I have shied away from for a few years. This one has no rivets in its fount tho. I hope I can find it.
@goldwinger11 Yeah, I did play around with the adjustment cap. The lamp burns well with it in the fully open position. As you screw in the cap, closing off the amount of air intake, the burner flares with heavy flame. I had wondered why the need for the air intake adjustment. I thought it may have just been a redundant feature that hadn't been removed from the lamp yet. I also wondered if it meant you could burn gasoline in the lamp as you could regulate how much air is drawn in through the intake. @Mackburner Yes, I probably did overthink the importance of having a tight seal at the jet end of the generator. I was desperately looking for reasons as to why the lamp wasn't burning correctly and that loose seal seemed as good a suspect as any. Thanks for the information it doesn't have to be a tight seal. I simply assumed a tight seal would be best.
Well it might be but if you think about it a lot of lamps don't have any kind of seal at the point where the generator enters the mixing tube. Most like Coleman have a pretty tight entry point and a worn hole can affect the burn but the NC generator fits into a casting and even if loose in there because of the threads there can't be much leakage. Quite a few lamps from before 1920 had an adjustable air intake. Perhaps to allow for variations in fuel quality but after about 1920 most lamps dropped this feature and relied on a fixed mixture. Mostly when running such lamps they work best when the adjuster is fully open. ::Neil::
What a great fettle and an imposing lamp, Matty. Looks absolutely great. My ritual would be even 'sillier' as it'll be at least 24hrs long and at 45 to 60psi.
Myn, I hear you when you mention 45 to 60 PSI for 24Hrs. You are thinking you'd rather something let go in that time frame rather than when you are about to light it. Amen to that. This is my opinion on placing that sort of pressure into founts. I don't think it is necessary to put that much pressure in to test new seals. I do think you have a very good chance of a fount failing at those kinds of pressures. Perhaps not a Coleman but many other lamps yes. For instance, I have read where Aladdin 12's and 14's were factory tested to only 40PSI. I have read many other similar articles where lamps and tanks were tested to only around the 40PSI mark. I think it might even be virtually impossible to put 60PSI into a fount when pumping by hand. Using a compressor is not a problem of course. You can use a compressor even on founts that have an integral pump which I do myself. Those founts are mostly not designed to have more pressure than you can put in using the integral pump alone.
Matty, yes, I've pumped up to 60psi(4 bars) with the built-in pump of a lantern. Unless if the pressure gauge's inaccurate of course. I was thinking anything besides the seals would sprout an unsuspecting leak if they're somewhat compromised. As long as the fount's bottom doesn't bulge out, I believe its still 'ok'. Maybe rather a little on the edge and risky, but so far, no problems....yet.
I'll take heed on your advice, Matty. I'll not be doing that on an old brass lantern. Maybe just 2 to 2.5bars at most for these. What I've tested with 60psi was a steel Butterfly lantern just to make sure it could take the maximum pressure that's registered on its integral gauge. I don't know what pressures could be attained from a hand operated pump by others but to be honest, I've got about 90psi from a normal hand-operated bicycle pump into a pressure vessel of another device with all my might.
