I've had my grandfather's old lantern for 20 yrs. and just got around to trying to use it. It's a Sunshine Safety Lamp Co and uses gasoline. I dumped the old gas and rinsed the tank with solvents, soaked the air tube and pricked it, etc. The question I have is there's a hole on the side of the gas cap filler. What is this hole for? I think maybe the gasket is suppose to block this hole when the cap is on and serve as an air release when the cap is removed, is that correct? I need to make a gasket because the old one looked like the original leather gasket and fell apart. So now when I put the cap on and try and pressurize the lantern the air just blows out the side of the cap. My grandfather was a welding instructor and would fix anything so it looks like he soldered the schrader valve to the cap--not sure if that is a fix or a modification. Any opinions on this or what model you think this is? Any help of info you can share is greatly appreciated! Great forum BTW, I've learned a lot.
I think you're correct when you say the hole is for the air to escape through when de-pressurising the tank. Otherwise the escaping air has to push past the threads which can be slow. The hole is just a better engineering solution IMHO. In the US, you'll be able to obtain Viton to make a gasket. I don't know for sure, but I'll bet that lantern originally had a separate pump which your granfather didn't have - hence the cobbled-up Schrader valve. Personally, I wouldn't he happy with that arrangement for a number of reasons and I'd want to return the lantern to original as quickly as possible. Perhaps one of the US members may be able to come up with a replacement part. Nice lantern BTW...
Thanks David. Yes, viton would be ideal. I was considering just making one out of leather though because I have some leather. I ran out of time yesterday to make the gasket. I can appreciate your thoughts on restoring it to its original condition but to me it has sentimantal value as it is since it was my grandfather's.
This is a model F-124 and it looks like the air stem in the filler has been removed and that Schrader valve inserted. Not sure the original cap would have had the hole though so it may be a replacement cap unit. Nice lantern though. Oh yes I nearly forgot. 1922 to 1927. After 1927 the company was Sunshine Products not Sunshine Safety. ::Neil::
In my view, it's a safety issue as well - I'd hang on to the modified cap alright, but I definitely wouldn't attempt to use the lantern with it fitted...
Firstly, those Schrader valves aren't infallible and will fail eventually. Secondly, there's a chance the tank could be over-pressurised - not a good idea given it's likely to be around 85 years old. Just my opinion, though...
David. I will go with you on the safety of a Schrader valve but if the tank is not corroded you can't over pressure it. These were all factory tested to 120psi and even with a compressor you will be hard pressed to achieve that. However in the mid 1920s Coleman tried to do a destructive pressure test on one of those tanks and gave up at 450cp. The tank did distort and round out a little but this tank sat in the office for 40 years with the pressure gauge steady at 450psi. That is one tough tank which will take whatever you give it. As for the valve well that is not quite as dangerous as we might think. If the valve fails it will just vent the tank of air because the cap is above the fuel. You might get ignition of the venting fuel rich air but the lamp will not vent fuel and just go out. Exciting perhaps and potentially dangerous if there is anything flamable nearby but probably not life threatening. ::Neil:: ::Neil::
Thanks for everyone's input. I had actually changed out the Schrader valve insert with one from a bicycle tire already. The old one worked but didn't look so great. I see that some new lanterns use the Schrader valve but they don't use gasoline so I appreciate the concerns of using the schrader with gas. I would prefer a cap with a pump anyway and may purchase one eventually but I don't really have a use for the lamp. Researching the caps, another theory I have is the cap once had a brass insert and that hole on the side of the cap was for the pin to keep the insert in place. The cap may not be original then but is there any chance this model was non-pressure lantern at one point? Here's a photo of an insert with the pin on the side: http://www.oldcolemanparts.com/product.php?productid=634&cat=0&page=6 Also could I use kerosene with this or maybe convert it somehow. With kerosene I'd feel comfortable using it in the house or maybe a big tent during emergencies but I won't use the gasoline in the house. Thanks again for all your help!
Not at all. These are pressure lamps. It may run on kero but you may have to restrict the air intake a little. Gasoline or kerosene in a house is the same. You get the same interesting gasses given off and they are pretty much the same safety wise. The big difference is in the fuel management but if you keep the fuel out of the house and fill outside as well then in use no difference at all. It is true that for some lamps the use of gasoline might be dangerous but not in a Coleman which is designed for the fuel and about as safe as it gets. ::Neil::
Hi David, This lantern should be burned with Coleman fuel ONLY. Due to the fact that Sunshine Safety had their own generator inlet design with the "nut/ferrule" seal. You could "Colemanize" it with the valve from a QL327. It's a direct replacement. Then you could run it with a R-55 generator. This would allow the tip to be cleaned when using K-1 or "Amish Blend". If that "Q99" style S.S. generator got carbon fouled by burning kerosene, you'll play hell cleaning it. Bob
I'm a bit (i.e. completely) ignorant regarding the nature of the relationship between Coleman and Sunshine Safety/Sunshine Products Any chance of a quick overview, anyone..?
Apparently Sunshine bought coleman and other parts to make the lamps: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/munwai/sunshine.htm As far as I know all of their products could be powered by "common gasoline", which is why I don't understand Bob's comment to "use Coleman fuel only". Can you explain Bob? thanks
Hello David, back in the 1920s gasoline was different to the gasoline which is sold today. Coleman fuel is relatively cheap in the USA., and many experienced American lamp collectors use it, Jeff.
Thanks Jeff and everyone. I'm an engineer so I like to know the details. It makes sense; there are a lot of fuel additives in the North East USA. When I had a carbureted motorcycle it used to fowl the pilot jet when the ethanol would evaporate during storage--very frustrating!
Sunshine safety didn't buy parts they bought lamps and retailed them. Up to 1915 they bought Coleman product. From 1915 to 1923 Sunshine bought in Gloria and Nulite products for sale as Sunshine Safety. This is why the well known Sunshine Safety lamp is actually Nulite model 10. In 1923 Coleman bought an interest in the company and placed a couple of their guys on the board. From then on Coleman product was bought in and sales of non Coleman stock wound down. In 1927 Coleman bought out most of the the remainder of the copmpany stock to become majority shareholders and the company name was changed to Sunshine Products which was effectively a division of Coleman. From 1923 Coleman made a range of product for Sunshine so that whilst they are unique to Sunshine they are in fact all Coleman made. The company ceased trading in July 1932. ::Neil::
Thanks, Neil... It would be nice to have a 'Manufacturers' section on here, although I'm aware that would be a heck of a task...
Hi David, Coleman fuel is straight run zero octane gasoline. One straight carbon chain with 8 carbon and 18 hydrogen. Regular gasoline is a "reformate". 100 octane is actually 2 methyl 4 ethyl pentane or isooctane. Still has the 8 carbon but arranged differently. Fuel molecular models Plus all the additives make it as far as I'm concerned unsuitable for use as a lantern/lamp fuel. I surely wouldn't burn it indoors. Kerosene is like cetane shown in the models but has 13 carbons. More carbon and hydrogen, more heat content. Bob
Hmmm yes. Not sure what you mean but I already have a deal of company history and info in the PLC. I don't mind giving some of it an airing here but you can't have it all because I want to publish the damn book one day. ::Neil::
Thanks Bob M, that's a great explination and thanks again for everyone else's input. I was fettling the lantern last night and made a gasket out of some rubber I had laying around but it wouldn't seal the hole properly. I think that hole is not really a vent but was to hold an insert in place and probably for another lamp. So I'm just going to buy a new cap if I can with either a pump or valve. Likewise when I put my finger over the hole and pump it up I think the valve is leaking so I'm going to get some new packing for it too. I'll let you all know how it goes but it's probably going to be a couple weeks before it's running.
Hi David, Here are some inages of an intact fuel cap with its components. I have found that a Viton O ring that will roll over the center tube and has a cross section to fill the groove where the gasket goes works perfectly. A place that sells gasket material and O rings can provide you what you need. Bob
Thanks Bob, I bought a replacement fuel/pressure cap and that seems to be working. My valve is leaking though. I took it apart and the packing was a mess. Question, should I repack it with graphite sting (provided I can find some) or get a circular packing like the one here? http://www.oldcolemanparts.com/product.php?productid=86&cat=0&page=1 Also, where does the packing go: - Between the nut and ring? - Between the ring and cross pin? - In front of the cross pin?
The packing goes between the nut and the ring. I use this. LACO 3/32" TEFLON cord packing Slide the packing nut all the way back to the wheel. Wind a coil of about 6 turns tightly on the valve stem. Then holding the coil tight press straight down on the coils directly over the center of the valve stem with a NEW single edge razor blade. This will cut individual rings that you fit into the valve stuffing box. You may have to press them in with a blunt probe. Stagger the joints 180 degrees apart. DON'T just wind a coil on the stem. That's NOT proper procedure for packing a valve. Because this packing is self luricating the tension on the packing nut and valve stem may not seem tight enough. Tighten until you feel some resistance. I would start with 4 rings. If you can compress those and can add a 5th, go for it. This stuff is good for 500 degF. It's far better than graphite. Bob
Thank you Bob that is very helpful. I should have paid closer attention when I took it apart. The ring on the valve isn't going willingly back into the valve housing and I wasn't sure if it is even suppose to go inside it. I'll put some oil on and it give it a gentle tap. The old packing probably wasn't original and it was one continuous string, but it leaked so it obviously wasn't installed correctly.
The knob doesn't come off but the cross pin does slide out so do you think I could use the circular one-piece packing sold here? http://www.oldcolemanparts.com/product.php?productid=86&cat=0&page=1
How old do you think those small size packing rings are? I'll bet they are rock hard. I suggest that you find a bronze rifle bore brush that fits the stuffing box of that valve body and clean it out down to the shine. That ring may be a backer for the packing. It's been so long since I did one of these I may be mistaken as to it's location with respect to the packing. As for price, you can buy a 25 ft roll of that Teflon cord for about $7-8. I have even used it to repack tip cleaner sockets on lanterns. Getting that pin out might be a chore in itself. Bob
Everything tells me that cap is the original one to the lantern. The straight knurl for one thing was unique to the Sunshine Safety, I've found. The only Coleman cap that I know of that has a straight knurl is the prototype short pump LQ427. All of the female Coleman caps from that era (mid 1920's) for the LQ427 and later L427 have the infamous vent hole in the side, like this one. I need to take a survey of all of the pics I have and what's out in the garage. Nevertheless, don't discard that cap. If it were me, I would try to remove the solder for the valve stem and carefully remove it. Does the underside of the cap still have the insert with check valve? If this was answered previously, please forgive me. I didn't see an answer but I could have passed over it.
I finnaly got this back together and it holds pressure. I ordered the 3/32 teflon packing (thanks Bob!) through an Amazon vendor and it took a while, plus I got side tracked. Here's a diagram of how the packing went together. Basically the packing (illustrated in white) sits between the nut and the threaded valve housing. For this valve there's not enough space between the valve needle and the valve housing for packing, etc. How much pressure should these lamps be pumped to for operation? I'm thinking like 5 psi would do it. Maybe tonight I'll take it to the back yard and try and light it.
